Here are some questions to stimulate more discussion. I believe that they have soem bearing on your developing discovery in the story of Esau/Jacob/Isaac/Rebekkah that we are conversing about.
- Is God's plan messed up by our wrong choices?
- What does sin do to our blessings, intended for us by God?
- Can God bless us when we are in sin? If so, when does He act in this way? If not, why not?
- What effect does sin have on God?
- How do sovereignty and free will collide in the story of "Isaac's 'Mistaken' Blessing"?
BTW - where is Laura in this discussion? and Bethany? :)
Good night,
PM
8 comments:
I dont think that God's plan is at all messed up by the wrong things we do. His will will be done no matter what He just may accomplish it through the use of another individual rather than us if we choose to disobey. If we disobey we will lose out on some of the great things that God has for us, but just because we lose out doesnt mean that God's plan is at a loss. He is so great He could use even our wrong doings to bring about good.
Oh, and Laura hasnt been on because she has been working alot.....and I have no idea where Bethany is!
Jac
Hey Jac,
I have to disagree with you on this one. ='[
I believe God's will is always perfection, and when humans fall short of that standard, God's design is messed up. I am NOT saying that He loses controll when this happens, but His plan is not completed in the way He had originally intended.
It is God's will that all men be saved. However, when men die that have not come to the knowledge of the Truth, God's will is not accomplished. And it is only God's sovereignty that allows good things to come out of the messes we make.
I dont know why she hasnt posted anything yet, but Bethany has read the blog.??
Em
good for you and the weather it is cold and rainy here. (kinda reminds me of England, kinda) but hey, thats not what this is for if you wanted to know the weather up here you could just look it up. God's plan doesnt get messed up cause we are always screwing up. we do miss out on what He has for us, but that aint His fault. but to be blessed even when we sin is not that far fetched..."case and point"(to take my "father's" lines) Moses was oredered to hit the rock to get water out of it the first time in Ex. 17:1-7, but the 2nd time God wanted to water the people from the rock in Numbers 20:4-13 he was to speak to it but in his [Moses's] anger he struck the rock and water still flowed from it. Sin makes God sad. ok lame statement, but still true. i think that it would hurt God more than when we want to give someone something and they become "unellegible" for it. God's sovereignty made Jacob get the blessing, but God allowed free will on Jacob and Rebeca's parts to "do it their own way".
thats what i see in it.
and why doesnt anyone else post comments? is it cause they are afraid that they might ask a question that we already figuered out? are they afraid asking for help in their Christian walk? i ll be the first to say i need alot of help...not only in my walk but also with my spelling. just a thought.
---Andrew
Emily i just re-read your comment and i dont believe what you said in that. you believe that God's plan is by not being accomplished actually failing when someone dies in their sin? so God is making a mistake? so honestly...you think that God lets us have such a strong free will that we can override is plan? by say, purposly not witnessing to someone we just played God and denied them access to heaven, we kept them condemned. maybe thats not what you ment. i actually hope that, thats not what you ment, but on any occation, i would like you to tell you what you ment cause im inda confused about your comment
---Andrew
Ok so here it goes...In reading the questions posed by PM and the other comments, I was spurred to think (ouch) and look for answers. In so doing as I was reading a blog written by one of my favorite teachers....Chip Ingram...I found that he had a waaaaay more eloquent comment than I could come up with (especially in writing) so here it is:
"The older I get the more I'm convinced that God, in His great love, sovereignly orchestrates circumstances to create scenarios that help us become acutely aware that "we are not in control." The illusion that our best made plans and strategies will result in predictable outcomes is just that -- an illusion. Not to say, of course, that we're not to plan -- Proverbs 16:3, 9 makes it very clear that God expects us to use our minds and to make plans. "The mind of a man plans his way... but it’s what comes after this phrase that we often forget, "…but the Lord determines his steps."
It's not that our decisions and planning don't make a difference, they make an incredible difference! In fact, it is in our decision to obey that we demonstrate our love for Christ (John 14:21). It's just that our decisions and plans are so limited by our finite perspective that we continually ask and plan for things that are "far below God's best for us.""
And that's all I have for now:-). Is this cheating or being resourceful???:)
Bethany
Andrew in responce to your confusion,
>>you believe that God's plan is by not being accomplished actually failing when someone dies in their sin? <<
I dont pretend to know how God plans to use each of us, but I am saying that God's will for each of us is that we would follow Him, trust Him, spend time with Him...etc, and then share with others of what Christ did for us. So, therefore, when a person dies in their sin, YES, I do believe that their free will has caused them to forever be separated from God. And thus not accomplish "God's Plan" in that individual's life.
What other Plan does God have other than that all men would come to know him, and the power of His love?
>>so God is making a mistake? so honestly...you think that God lets us have such a strong free will that we can override is plan?<<
Do you think that God is making a mistake by allowing us to have free will? >>Sin makes God sad.<< Actually, it makes God angry, he abhors sin. So why does he allow us to sin?
The only answer I have to that is that God allows us to have free will because we would never fully appreciate what it means to follow him if we weren't able to make a concious decision to turn away from sin and follow him. But with that free will comes the freedom to choose sin.
I don't know if this is an accurate point of view, but I do believe that it "messes up" God's plan for that individual and what God could have done through that individual if they choose sin over righteousness.
Hope we're not completely contradicting each other here...so if that doesn't clear anything up, then I'll just have to talk to you in person or I'll start confusing myself. =]
~Emily
Great posts all.
Any action in direct contradiction to God's will/plan/agenda or in deference to my own will/plan/agenda is rebellion. We are all infected with a natural predisposition (depravity) to it.
Emily,
to tell you the truth. i dont believe that someone not getting saved messes up God's plan. i think that God planned it that way. i think that really only those who God calls can be saved. to use Mr Conner's words, God knows what is going to happen before it does, including whether or not someone gets saved. if someone is going to die in their sin God knows it and has already seen it and nothing we can do will change it. so you might say thats not fair! really us getting saved is not fair. we desirve hell, not to spend eternity with God in heaven. so...life aint fair to us saved folk, but i am glad for it. something else one might say would be that why go out and witness? because whether or not that we witness is in God's plan but if we "chose" to witness and someone gets saved it was because God planned for that to happen. God gives us a choice...but He already knows what we are going to do. sorry if thats confusing. but thats what i believe. if Im wrong then i aske someone to correct me, seriously. thats just what i have come to the conclusion of from what i have read and studied.
---Andrew
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